The missing link

The other point you need to consider.. and you also seem to be close to the answer on this one.

When playing over chord progressions. As the chords change, you ideally want to be targeting ‘chord tones’ These are the strong tones within every chord.

C major triad ( C E G ) .. C E G are the chord tones you want to target, they are the tones that will stand out and have a very ‘homely’ sound. The rest are usually refereed to as colour tones and are the tones that give a melodic passage its own unique feel.

This may also help you understand where modes fit in.

eg; C E G.. C major triad chord tones(target notes) D F A B < these are the colour tones of C major or C ionian mode.. C D E F G A B C being the entire scale.

So having said that. If the next chord is F.. F A C will be your target notes and, assuming we are going to use an Fionian mode, G Bb D E will be the colour tones. All together we wind up with F G A Bb C D E which is the sound of F ionian. and so on.

If you were chasing the sound of the lydian mode over a C triad however.
Target noes would be C E G and the colour tones would be D F# A B creating C D E F# G A B = Clydian.

I have to run but I will leave you with one more thing.

C lydian =
(C E G) C triad(Cmajor)
(D F# A) D triad (D major)
(B D F#) B minor triad (B minor)
(F# A C) F# dim triad (F# dim)

and so on… These are just a few of the arpeggios that exist within the C lydian mode. All of which will harmonize with a C major chord. It is up to you now to decide if they sound good.. or not.. or maybe you like them but just cant see a use for them right now.

The point of studying music theory is to become aware of these relationships so you have the option to use them, or not use them, to express yourself in a musical way.

I hope this helped in some way.
Mike.

Hello brekehan, 🙂

I see the “music theory bug” has gotten a hold of you – LOL! 😉

Actually, I agree with Mike, in that it seems to me that you are more knowledgable about the modes and music theory in general than your frustration and questions might indicate! Ultimately, (as Mike said) you DO need to learn to trust your ears in making decisions that sound good to you! Please your OWN sense of what sounds good, and you’ll have a chance of pleasing others. Trying to please OTHERS’ might be a blueprint akin to a “dog chasing his own tail!” IE: It never ends! 😮

Now as far as specific ideas go, I have what I like to present as a slightly different approach to applying modes and diatonic note-choices to chord-progressions. First of all, let me say that I think the ideas Mike shared with you here (regarding playing over your “C” Major/”C” Ionian chord progression are valid, interesting, and certainly worth exploring. That said, I think you might find that they yield a slightly “jazzier,” sort of “unresolved & spacey” sounding (I know…my musical adjectives are bit ridiculous, but bear with me for a few moments – LOL!) What I like to offer as an idea/approach is one which could yield a more simple “pop/rock/(U.S.)southern-rock/(U.S.)country-music” type of vibe! I propose that because the Pentatonic Major scale represents the five (5) notes which are mutually inclusive to ALL three (3) major-mode types (of the modes derived from the major-scale – let’s leave the melodic minor/jazz-minor systems/modes OUT of the discussion for now, to streamline/simplify things, OK!) Thus if you play simple phrases derived from the “C” Pentatonic Major Scale – over the WHOLE chord progression initially – this would work. Sure, this would not yield the most harmonically dense or jazzy result, but it would certainly work and be consonant, since the five (5) “C” Pentatonin Major notes (C D E G A) are inclusive to the “C” Major Key or “C” Ionian Mode – both containing (C D E F G A B.) For my own tastes, sticking ONLY to this five (5) note-group. is a bit “thin” sounding to me since there is NO inclusion of the IV-Chord’s Root-Note (“F”) in the scale! Thus, I would make a concious effort to SOMETIMES (I don’t think one wants to do ANYTHING everytime around to the point of predictability!) “Add” the “F” note to my “C” Pentatonic proceedings (again, maybe not EVERY time the IV-Chord (“F”) arises, but certainly SOME of the time!) Remember that the “F”-Major (IV) Chord’s major-3rd-note/chord-tone (“A”) and the “F”-major chord’s perfect-5th note/chord-tone (“C”) are ALREADY in the plain “C” Pentatonic Major Scale! So even though “F’s” perfect-5th might be an ambiguous chord-tone, (since it’s also the I-Chord’s [“C’s”] Root!) the major-3rd chord-tone of “F” (which as I said is “A”) works GREAT in “making/implying that chord change/transition!” When the V-chord arises, (“G”-Major) one of IT’S triad chord-tones is NOT inclusive to the “C” Pentatonic Major Scale. For the V-Chord, (“G”) the missing note is it’s major-3rd (“B”) note. I could ADD the “G”-Chord’s major-3rd (“B”) from the parent key’s Ionian Scale if I like how that note sounds to my ear! However, I could always just use the V-Chords (“G”-Chord’s) Root-Note (“G”) since it is ALREADY inclusive to the original “C” Pentatonic Major Scale that I suggested in the first place! 😉

OK, so as you can see, a LOT of chord-tone oriented, and still diatonic/”in-key” ideas can be developed WITHOUT straying very far from a simple Root/I-Chord Pentatonic Major Scale (in this case) over a [ Imaj – IV-maj – V-maj ] progression!

NOW, getting back to Mike’s suggestions (and even some of your own conclusions) regarding “key-of-the-moment/scale-to-chord” approaches…As I said earlier, these ideas work GREAT, and yield a harmonically denser result, with more potential for guide-tones BETWEEN the targeted chord-tones. I propose the following: Start out simple, with my Pentatonic Approach, then as you PACE yourself gradually in your improvisation, THEN start adding the NON-PENTATONIC MODAL-NOTES to your already functional Root-Pentatonic note-choices! Remember, the notes that differentiate one Major Mode from another, are the notes that are NOT in the Root Pentatonic Scale! :

“C” Pentatonic Major:___C__D__E_____G__A_____C
“C” Ionian:____________C__D__E__F__G__A__B__C
“C” Lydian:___________C__D__E__F#_G__A__B__C
“C” Mixolydian:_______C__D__E__F__G__A__Bb__C

Even the “C” Lydian Dominant (4th-mode derived from “G” Melodic Minor) shares this relationship! See below:

“C” Lydian-Dominant:____C__D__E__F#_G__A__Bb

However, the “C” Mixolydian-b6th Mode (5th-mode derived from “F” Melodic Minor) DOES NOT share this relationship, since it has a flatted-sixth, whereas the plain Pentatonic Major has a natural-sixth! – See below:)

“C” Mixolydian-Flat 6th:_C__D__E__F__G__Ab_Bb

Even a “C” Melodic Minor Scale (that’s right – “C” MINOR!) can have some useful Pentatonic playing value, IF one considers adding a “blues- note” (flatted-3rd interval = “Eb”) to the “C” Pentatonic Major Scale! This ends up blending the Ionian sound with the Melodic Minor sound, and since Melodic Minor (and it’s modes) is/are of a NON-FUNCTIONAL nature anyways (that is, musical/consonant chord progressions are NOT derived from the scale system,) they are best used in conjunction with other NON-Melodic Minor Scale sytems – like the major scale and it’s modes! See below:

“C” Major Pentatonic Blues:_C__D__Eb_E____G__A_____C
“C” Melodic Minor:________C__D__Eb____F__G__A__B__C
“C” Ionian/Major:__________C__D_____E__F__G__A__B__C

So you can be ambiguous as to your implied mode of the moment, (as you play Pentatonic) and THEN you can start ADDING those NON-PENTATONIC/MODAL-NOTES to your lines as you go! This way, you’re NOT “hitting-the-listener over-the-head” with which mode you’re implying right away…Instead you’re adding suspense and anticipation to your lines and note-choices, and then before they know it….your playing modally!!! No ONE EVER SAID that musicians/guitarists/improvisers/soloists MUST PLAY ALL SEVEN (7) notes of a mode at a time to play modally! One can start with a 5-note grouping (or less, if you think about it!) and GRADUALLY PACE those MODAL-NOTES into the solo/improvisation.

Thais all having been said, I would advise that since the chord-progression used in your example WAS/IS a simple I-IV-V traid-based progression, that a fairly simple melodic approach would probably be appropriate “in-context.” HOWEVER, if one were to play over harmonically more-and-more dense chords and chord-progressions, (like Jazz!) then I would propose that my “Pentatonic-segues-to-Modes” might NOT be as appropriate as the approaches which contain more “harmonically-dense,” “chord-tone-loaded,” “tension-and-release,” “chromatics & passing-tones,” etc. ideas. The jazzier the accompaniment, the more firepower the soloist needs, and of course, a thorough understanding of the ALL chord-tones/arpeggios, modes (derived from the Major Scale AS WELL as the Melodic-Minor Scale!) would be necessary! 😎

I say, master (or at least get gig-tested/functional!) at the triad-based stuff, THEN (if your heart is in the Jazz) get SERIOUS in your conquest of those last few aforementioned Jazz pre-requisites! 😉

It seems to me that you are WELL-ON-YOUR-WAY to understanding what you need to understand about the triad-based stuff. Now, just DO IT!!! :rolleyes: 😎

Best of luck, and I hope any of this helps! 😉

P.S.: I think it’s GREAT to see the talented and VERY knowledgable Mike Edwin STILL gracing these forums and helping out us needy Infinite Guitar students (like myself!) I hope all is well Mike E!

~Bill Meehan

@Ronnie Bush 10781 wrote:

I have been teaching for a long time, and have found that the easiest way to explain this is simply, if you are in the key of C as you stated:
1 most seem to think that it matters what mode you are playing over the chord, when the the chord is the controlling factor.If you play an A Aeolian mode over C (relative minor or 6) it will still sound like C Major scale, same with D Dorian E Phrygian, etc., but if you play A Aeolian over C then shift to E Minor you are now E Phrygian. The chord change is what shapes modal feel.
2you dont have to play straight C Major, you could change to C Mixolydian as long as you dont play a B in chord progression.
So stop racking your brain about scales, play over some varying chord changes, experiment, and most of all use your ears.

Hi Ronnie, 🙂

I agree in that it is all relative to the chord accompaniments at any given point-in-time! My (albeit wordy/lengthy) diatribe about scale-types and compare/contrast analysis was really to:

1.) Make sure that he recognized that a “parallel-scale-tonality” (modes compared from the SAME ROOT – IE:”C”) can help ones EARS develop a sense of each mode’s tonality/sound.

2.) Make sure that he realized that through all of the 7-note-per-octave diatonic-scale/mode pattern-memorization and tertiery chord-scale theory, that there is ALWAYS the fall-back option of the “EMBEDDED-PENTATONIC” at one’s disposal. It’s easy, it sounds good, (albeit a bit hackneyed at this point!) and most people have a level of confidence with that’s scale’s fingerings and resultant tonality.

I think a lot of people suffer a “disconnect” when it comes to pure improvisation and application of modes, as if the modes need to ALWAYS be played as 7-note-per-octave entities, while the 5-note-per-octave pentatonics are a completely separate blues/rock-thing that have no place over modal-vamps, diatonic-progressions, or even chord-progressions which contain key-changes! I’d hope that you’d agree with me when I assert that I couldn’t disagree more with such a disconnect of usable music-vocabulary! I say mix the pentatonics in with the modal-applications since the pentatonics are MUTUALLY INCLUSIVE to said modes anyways! For example, when you (correctly) suggested that “C Mixolydian” can be used over the “C” as long as there’s no “B-natural” in the progression, I would say: “Absolutely, but even if there WAS a “B” in the progression – say a Vdom/G7 chord for example – one could surely switch to “C-Ionian/G-Mixolydian” for the duration of that Gdom7-chord, (Guthrie Govan {and certainly many others} is masterful at such “key-of-the-moment/serving-the-chord” note-choices/approaches!) but one could also omit the “Bb and “F” from the Mixolydian, yielding a “C-Pentatonic Major. I realize it’s NOT the most inspiring group of notes and lacks the G7’s chord-quality (w/o “B”), but it still has “G7’s” Root & 5th, it works, and it’s a fingering which is probably confident to the advancing-soloist! That’s all. That was the gist of what I was proposing, I just ended up lacking brevity/conciseness – LOL! 😮

I totally agree with your assertion that we all need to experiment with applying notes in general over known chord-types to really gain command over the note/chord/interval relationships. Using ones ears is ultimately very important…in fact, it’s EVERYTHING! 😉 One of the most effective exercises I ever learned to do (kudos/credit to Mick Goodrick and his intense book: “The Advanving Guitarist” for this one!) was the “Soloing on a Single-String” exercise! (I believe Goodrick in his dry/offbeat sense-of-humor nicknamed this drill “The Science of The Unitar.”) Seriously, that was a life-changer for me, because up-to-that-point (about 1988), I was all about memorized patterns & licks, and ALL of my experience was in rock-music (which is STILL my “genre-of-choice” and my strong-suit…if I have one? – LOL! :rolleyes:) The Goodrick drill (which simply involves pure improvisation on a single-string over varying progressions) got me to REALLY learn the entire fretboard/note-names, AND it got me out of my reliance purely on memorized-patterns/licks. It also improved my melodic-sensibilities, since you have no choice but to become more melodic! I also added in an additional “drill-requirement” for myself and eventually my students that forces the verbal calling-out of each note BY LETTER-NAME, before proceeding to the next note! That’s where learning the fretboard comes into play.) Other drill-variations which I later suggested and used are: incorporating string-bends; playing arpeggios (a great way to SEE the intervals – like on a piano almost!); expanding/loosening the “number-of-strings-used” restriction from a single-string (1) to two (2) strings – adjacent or otherwise. All of these variations merely maintained and/or strengthened the original intent of the exercise IMO. Anyways, I think that drill is a great example of doing what YOU suggested, which is to “play over some varying chord changes. and most of all, USE YOUR EARS!” 😉

I tried to imply as much with my opening statement:

“Ultimately, (as Mike said) you DO need to learn to trust your ears in making decisions that sound good to you! Please your OWN sense of what sounds good, and you’ll have a chance of pleasing others. Trying to please OTHERS’ might be a blueprint akin to a “dog chasing his own tail!” 😎

Great points you made Ronnie, and thanks for keeping it brief and “to-the-point!” (I obviously struggle with said conciseness! – LOL! :o)

~Bill Meehan~ 😀

@Ronnie Bush 10792 wrote:

I am with you on all said. I did not want to go to deep because he seemed to be struggling with the concept. I am 38, started playing in 1978, seriously in 1982. I am self taught and can appreciate the struggle to understand theory. You being an older player like myself, can probably remember coming up and having to actually learn songs by ear, which gained you some education due to interpretation as well as ear training. I teach now and have countless students attempting Petrucci solos with barely a year under their belt. And they can not improvise over a 1,4,5 blues turnaround. High level Tabs and bad youtube instructors are putting young players in over their heads, and then they have to slow down and learn theory and it does not come so easy. By the way, I am a huge Govan fan, and when I get students that say they are advanced, I tell them they have to audition for advanced classes. I then tell them they have 2 weeks to perform Guthries Bullet Blues, They always say ” who is Guthrie Govan?”.I then click on the backing track and play it for them. For some reason they always say “not that advanced”. Maybe that is a little over the top, but they know who Guthrie is now.

Hey Ronnie, 🙂

Thanks for the insight! 😉 You’e so right about how it was “back-in-the-day!” I tell students sometimes about the fact that they are a part of what I call the “TAB-Generation.” (That Guys like you and I (and Guthrie for that matter, although I shudder and blush at the thought of including myself in any conversation including Mr. Govan – since I consider him a “six-string genius!”) had no choice but to develop our ears, and since a lot of the older/classic rock music was so steeped in the improvisational traditions of Blues, it was a natural thing and essentially a requirement/pre-requisite to playing in a band back then (for me this was the early-80’s, when I started playing.) Ya know what’s funny? When you were going-off about kids trying to play “Petrucci-solos” without being able to navigate an improvised 12-bar blues-form, I had a flashback to reading Guthrie Govan’s books (“Creative Guitar I & II”) from the foreward/Introduction of one of them where he cites something very similar, which occured while addressing a roomful of people to whom he was about to give a masterclass to. I believe it was something to the effect of:

“I pointed out the importance of having a good ear – the ability to understand what you hear and replicate it on your instrument, to work out solos from records, to jam with other musicians in real-time and so-on. I wondered out loud if all of these great teaching products might not be impairing the listening skills of the modern guitarist. I’ve met players who can play Steve Vai’s monumental Passion and Warfare album note-for-note, but they can’t jam over a 12-bar blues?!? I find this somewhat disturbing!”

BTW, I might’ve paraphrased a bit? Anyways you’re really saying the same thing, and it’s a point very well-taken by me! I hear ya man! In fact, for that reason, I’ve really been trying to steer my more dedicated/serious students away from massive amounts of “note-for-note” TAB projects. Instead of them trying to tackle entire solos which have a very high “degree-of-difficulty,” I’m encouraging that they perhaps learn short, specific, targeted-licks/phrases (over “known chord-types/chord-qualities,”) as part of a scheme to build a “lick-library.” Then, aside from that, I’ve been encouraging “improvisations-over-quality-backing-tracks!” The better students are responding very well to this too! What I do is I provide them with a few quality B.T.’s and then have them improvise over them for a week with NO DIRECTIONS/SUGGESTIONS from me! Then when they come back, I make them play over the tracks for me. This gives me an idea of what their tendencies/strengths are as well as their weaknesses. From there, devising an overall/long-term “lesson-plan-for-improvement” and it’s associated weekly sub-assignments, becomes very obvious and easy! 😎 I figured I’d share that teaching experience with the teachers and students here at IG! 😎

BTW, I’m glad to see that I’m NOT the only “old-schooler” here at Infinite Guitar! – LOL! 😮 :p

TTYS! 😉

~Bill Meehan~